Cold start - engine vibrations, changing RPM - what to check

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william
Posts: 110
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:41 am

Re: Cold start - engine vibrations, changing RPM - what to c

Post by william » Tue Jan 12, 2016 12:53 pm

yes i think the engine problems could be caused by the bad balance pid readings.
It would be interesting to see what balance pids look like if cylinder 1 and 4 injectors were changed over, to see if the high pid reading followed injector one.
08 mk4 mondeo 2.0 140 bhp

rmkk
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:20 pm
Vehicle: Mondeo 2007/2.0TDCi/103kW, Focus 2006/1.6TDCi/66kW

Re: Cold start - engine vibrations, changing RPM - what to c

Post by rmkk » Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:04 pm

The service said to me before Christmas exactly: "We measured a high corrections on one ...(i think they said Injector). So we decided to exchange injectors positions randomly, however we measured still the same high corrections on the same ... (injector?)." I think they were speaking about cylinders, because it make sense to me, but I'm not a professional. And I do not know the diagnostic SW they are using.

I'm not able to exchange injector 1 and 4 myself, I never done that. There is more fewer DYI for MK4 than for MK3 and Focus, so I didn't find that kind of DYI.

I have to wait until the service installs brand new injectors next week.

rmkk
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:20 pm
Vehicle: Mondeo 2007/2.0TDCi/103kW, Focus 2006/1.6TDCi/66kW

Re: Cold start - engine vibrations, changing RPM - what to c

Post by rmkk » Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:30 pm

To imagine whats happening after cold start I made a video, if you see it from minute 2nd further, there are several irregularities to be heard clearly from engine that cause a vibration of all the car. I made a live data log, it starts surprisingly from second 273 - i don't know why
- CylBal values are indicated from second 353 when CHT reaches 10s
- EGRVP_V, EGR_PCT started to change few seconds later at 367s
- - does somebody know what could it mean ? EGR should be the brand new one.
- - does anybody know where EGR Valve is located (EGRVP_V), is it on/inside EGR, can I inspect it/check it/clean it ?
- - why EGR throttle is not opening/closing in sync with EGR valve ? EGRVP_V and EGRTP_V values does not change in sync, EGRTP_V does not change at all ...
- LOAD is changing regularly from engine start at 279, but sometimes there are high LOAD differences during few seconds

https://youtu.be/dY-Ejxu3FAw

If somebody can help I'll appreciate it.

Thanks.
Attachments
Load is changing from 16 to 60 during 3 seconds.png
Load is changing from 16 to 60 during 3 seconds.png (51.8 KiB) Viewed 6496 times
EGR_starts_changing.png
EGR_starts_changing.png (50.8 KiB) Viewed 6496 times
CHT reaches 10C.png
CHT reaches 10C.png (50.31 KiB) Viewed 6496 times
run20160111-evening-cold.zip
(328.27 KiB) Downloaded 141 times

william
Posts: 110
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:41 am

Re: Cold start - engine vibrations, changing RPM - what to c

Post by william » Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:03 pm

The engine hunting at about the two minute mark and on is caused by the egr valve opening and closing but i am not sure why the ecu is commanding the valve to do this.

Last winter i had the same problem with cold start, i cleaned egr and reset but it was still hunting, in my case it only lasted about 10 seconds, when i checked with forscan the egr opened and closed about 15 times before it stabilized, in your case it is not stabilizing until temperature has increased significantly.

Today i checked cold start with forscan and when egr opened it stabilized right away with no hunting, so what changed ?

The only thing i can think of that happened to my car between last winter and this winter was the battery being disconnected,
so did disconnecting the battery reset the ecu and allow it to relearn new driving characteristics, i don't know but i would suggest you try ecu reset.

If ecu reset does not help and you don't get any other suggestion then blanking the egr with a plate between the egr and egr cooler will stop the hunting.
08 mk4 mondeo 2.0 140 bhp

rmkk
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:20 pm
Vehicle: Mondeo 2007/2.0TDCi/103kW, Focus 2006/1.6TDCi/66kW

Re: Cold start - engine vibrations, changing RPM - what to c

Post by rmkk » Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:57 pm

Today in the evening I've done following things
- disconnected the battery for half Hour
- PCM/Reset all adaptations
- to be sure that everything was reset I made a particular reset of IAT, Knock sensor, Fuel metering valve, Differencial presure sensor, EGR valve adaptations
- PCM/Module reset

Then I made a short 20km trip. Live data I will post in the morning when engine will be cold.

After that I decided to check what class are my injectors. I expected all to be class 5, because in "PCM/Fuel Injector Correction Factors" is a "(*)5" value what should be a default current value set in PCM.

I was very surprised with following
- cylinder 1 (first from left nearest to belt): Class 5, 9647247280
- cylinder 2: Class 5, 9647247280
- cylinder 3: Class 6, removed from injector head, it seems intentionally, but I don't know why
- cylinder 4: Class U, 9659337980

So the questions are
- is it OK that injectors are mixed together ? Surprisingly it works together very well.
- why the serial is removed from injector in cylinder 3 ?
- what does it mean class "U", is it universal compatible with class 4/5/6 ?
- can the mix of injectors be an answer to my problems ?

Thanks.
Last edited by rmkk on Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

william
Posts: 110
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:41 am

Re: Cold start - engine vibrations, changing RPM - what to c

Post by william » Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:54 pm

The workshop manual gives 3 classifications for the injectors, 4,5,and 6,all injectors should be the same classification.
Cylinder 1 is on the gearbox side of engine so that is the cylinder with injector u .
08 mk4 mondeo 2.0 140 bhp

rmkk
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:20 pm
Vehicle: Mondeo 2007/2.0TDCi/103kW, Focus 2006/1.6TDCi/66kW

Re: Cold start - engine vibrations, changing RPM - what to c

Post by rmkk » Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:09 am

Here is a cold start from today's morning, seems that something changed in EGR behavior after battery disconnection and full reset. Left side of the picture is today's result and right side is yesterday's result before reset, EGR has a violet color approx in the middle. I'll check it during weekend once more. Thanks
Attachments
20160113ColdStartComparingToYesterdaysResult(BeforeReset).png
20160113ColdStartComparingToYesterdaysResult(BeforeReset).png (174.32 KiB) Viewed 6427 times
run20160113-morning-cold-after-reset.zip
(194.22 KiB) Downloaded 144 times
Last edited by rmkk on Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

rmkk
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:20 pm
Vehicle: Mondeo 2007/2.0TDCi/103kW, Focus 2006/1.6TDCi/66kW

Re: Cold start - engine vibrations, changing RPM - what to c

Post by rmkk » Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:18 am

william wrote:The workshop manual
For other reader's reference I'posting a link to mentioned manual http://workshop-manuals.com/ford/mondeo ... _controls/ where following text is printed:

During manufacture, the fuel injectors are graded according to their flow characteristics into one of three grades. The grade is printed on the top of the fuel injector and can be the number 4, 5, or 6. All four fuel injectors must be of a matching grade for any one engine application. The grade value is used by the PCM to adjust the fuel injector injection signal to achieve optimum efficiency.

Just a quick response from my service, they are saying that after renewing of injectors the class number printed on injector's head lose it sense. So that it seems that all injectors passed through testing process after renewal should work the same way/the same quality, with no matter of class number they were manufactured with. Question: is it worth to try to change class to 4, then to 5 and then to 6, compare and evaluate when the engine behavior is the best ? Then keep the "best" class ? I suppose that injector with original class 5 can not keep its class (precision) after renewing ... so tha class can be 4 after renew.

Next week brand new injectors will be installed into my car.

william
Posts: 110
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:41 am

Re: Cold start - engine vibrations, changing RPM - what to c

Post by william » Sat Jan 16, 2016 11:52 am

egr behavior seems to have improved, after ecu has relearned hopefully it will stabilize as soon as it opens.

My injectors are class 5 and i also thought about changing class number in ecu but was not sure if class 6 increased or decreased fuel supply and i think the difference between numbers would be to little to feel any difference when driving.

It would be interesting to see if egr does stabilize and balance reading with new injectors installed.

Let us know how you get on.
08 mk4 mondeo 2.0 140 bhp

rmkk
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:20 pm
Vehicle: Mondeo 2007/2.0TDCi/103kW, Focus 2006/1.6TDCi/66kW

Re: Cold start - engine vibrations, changing RPM - what to c

Post by rmkk » Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:00 pm

william wrote:i think the difference between numbers would be to little to feel any difference when driving
Because of that I decided to compare it in idle state based on CylBal values. But in short, there was no many differences. Trends was almost the same. Just for the record you can see diagrams for Class 4, 5, 6 setting(from left to right). Of course I let always PCM to learn new values during a short trip, then I tried a cold start. So, no step ahead.
Beside that, I decided to blind an EGR. There is still a "hunting" during an idle after cold start.

Thats all, the only thing that is missing is exchange of injectors. Let You know.
Attachments
Class-4-5-6_Idle_Comparing.png
Class-4-5-6_Idle_Comparing.png (173.95 KiB) Viewed 6302 times

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